Some more German language frustration

[Parsifal]

A lot of difficulties that Brits (I'm one too!) often have with learning foreign languages boil down to the fact that English grammar is seldomly taught in schools - which makes foreign language learning more difficult if you don't understand the concepts in your mother tongue.

I too am disappointed that the rigorous teaching of grammar and syntax has been shunned in favour of a touchy-feely approach to language education which kids itself on two counts - that it has a greater claim to pedagogical validity and is 'fun' or 'easy' for the learner. Books with titles like 'The fun and fast way to learn German' ought to be banned. The 'fun' part rarely avoids banality and the use of words like 'fast' and 'easy' is dangerously misleading. WTF is the point of pretending that German cases are less complicated than they actually are? It's not as if the learner won't find out eventually. And then the irregularities and complexities become even greater hurdles for being introduced so late.

The grammarian's love for nuance has been completely expunged from the curriculum. It takes somebody who revels in the complexities of rules and their exceptions to actually break down complicated linguistic concepts, especially once we lose the toddler's capacity for osmosis and start to think and question like adults. Because idiotic language institutes observe that it is toddlers who learn languages the fastest, through total immersion and no conceptual explanation, they assume that this is the best way to teach adults - which is why, Bramish, your teacher is offended by your questions. She is probably unused to contemplating grammar in a conceptual sense herself, and in all likelihood has been brainwashed into thinking that such an understanding is worthless. Just consider how stigmatized the term 'grammarian' has become, or how reactionary Morgenhund's sentiment looks ('bring back grammar' is something you only tend to hear now from the privately-educated backbenches of the Conservative Party).

At the risk of sounding even more reactionary, I'm going to admit that I studied Latin and enjoyed it (OK, perhaps more in hindsight than at the time). As most European languages apart from English are inflected to some degree, learning perhaps the most inflected European language of all gives you a huge boost. Sadly my Latin and German teachers could have been a bit more touch-feely - we did spend so much time on grammar and translation that speaking was completely neglected, and even now my spoken German is nowhere near the same level as my writing and reading abilities. But learning seven cases - three more than German, and goodness how I hated the ablative - means that I have few problems processing German inflections, or indeed syntax. I was pleased to see that New Labour actually promoted Latin in schools, although I suspect given the current public spending climate it's not something that will continue to receive any substantial investment.

[Snowdog]

Parsifal, well put. I have graded to many papers of people in Uni (US) who supposedly graduated from High School. In short their comprehension of grammar was abysmal.

I will also say German Grammar in a Nutshell is an excellent book. For a book that thin one thinks they can get through it in a night, however there is reality.

[Ozmatt]

Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod.

[morgenhund]

Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod.

Three or so volumes thereof, I believe...

[Sandrine]

What you posted Morgenhund reminded me of what my first German teacher taught us when dealing with the cases: lists!

List of prepositions always followed by the dative:
aus, bei, mit, nach, seit, von, zu

And the ones always followed by the accusative:
durch ; gegen ; ohne ; um ; für ; wider

In the case of "in", for instance, if there is a movement, you will pick the accusative: ich gehe ins (in das) Belvedere Schloss; if not, the dative: ich bin im Belvedere Schloss. (I know there's the matter of "zu" but here no need to think as it is by rule always with dative).

[morgenhund]

@Sandrine - I remember it being done by lists in "Deutsch heute" (the textbook I had at school) It still working that way when I took up Russian at university. Similarly with French for learning which auxiliary verb to use in the passé composé (although there were a lot of opposing pairs you could use to remember the ones that took être (venir-aller etc.)).

[waynemarkstubbs]

I can sort of see why the teaching of english grammar beyond the simple 'naming of parts' (noun, verb etc.) has almost died out - because the distinctions have almost entirely died out in english usage.

Cases only exist as a relic in the use of personal pronouns (and even they are gone in some dialects, e.g. Jamaican "Him told I..." or West Country - "I sez to 'ee").

The subjunctive is almost only ever used in set phrases rather than in general conversation - would that it were.

Our verbs are coalescing into a one or two standard declentions - sit on any bus in south London and you will hear "runned", "standed", "he gone down the shops yesterday".

All of which makes it wonderfully easy to learn english grammar, and a nightmare for native english speakers, accustomed to their casual grammar, to learn almost any other language. I remember the culture shock coming from a "progressive" junior school that had barely bothered teaching me what a noun was, to a senior school environment where I was expected to study Latin and Greek. I floundered for the first few terms. But I persevered, and the knowledge of grammar I got from my classics has made it easier to learn every other european language I've encountered. But I can imagine how someone who hasn't had that feels when first presented with german - because I felt the same when first presented with Latin.

When my austrian colleagues talk about improving their english, I notice that they always want to improve their grammar. I tell them not to bother - all the subtlety in english is in the vocabulary. When an colleague was concerned that they didn't fully understand the difference between "I might have..." and "I may have", they were shocked when I told them that 99% of native speakers would not be aware that there was a difference, and wouldn't care which was used.

[Parsifal]

When my austrian colleagues talk about improving their english, I notice that they always want to improve their grammar. I tell them not to bother - all the subtlety in english is in the vocabulary. When an colleague was concerned that they didn't fully understand the difference between "I might have..." and "I may have", they were shocked when I told them that 99% of native speakers would not be aware that there was a difference, and wouldn't care which was used.

I read a lot of scholarly material written in German and the dullness of it - even when the topic is fascinating - can be frustrating, and I think it comes down to what is and isn't possible in this kind of context with the language. To take an example, I read a interesting but workmanlike tome five years in German that has recently been released in English. The English version, which I'm reading now, is riveting. None of the content has changed, and there's no gratuitous sexing up or licence taken with the translation. The only difference is that the English comes across as having flair. As you say it is a vocabulary thing, but I think syntax also plays an important role. If you wrote in German like that for a scholarly publication it would be regarded as excessively literary, even vain.

Another thing I've noticed is that when you have some dramatic claim to make in English, you can put your tongue in your cheek and signal to the reader that you are fully aware you're sensationalising for the sake of rhetoric, and that obviously there are qualifications to what you're claiming. In German the tongue in cheek element is completely missing and as a result I find it hard to decide exactly how sincere some grand claim is.

[Bramish]

Thanks for all the pointers so far.

I bought a book called German in 30 Days and am working my way through it. Half of it is pretty easy to understand, especially with the 2 years experience I have of living here and picking up words and phrases, but some of the grammar exercises have made me pull my hair out and all but give it up completely.

I hope no-one minds me posting here for a little help? Is there a forum section dedicated to sharing and learning Deutsch?

OK, the first one is a pretty minor gripe - why is the word order different in the following two sentences?

Die kinder spielen seit dreßig Minuten Fußball
Ich lese das Buch seit fünf Tage

Next up, past participles and perfect
Despite the book's attempt at explaining I have no idea what these English terms refer to. One of the exercises asks me to Put the past participle in the correct column
I am then given a list of words (such as anprobieren, bedienen, besuchen etc) which I have to arrange into three groups:

(...)ge.....en
(...)ge.....t
.....t

For example, absagen = abgesagt

What confuses me is how I'm supposed to know which group they should go in. Is there a rule I should use, or is it just a case of learning every single verb and its past participle?

Any help appreciated.

[_rip]

why is the word order different in the following two sentences?

Die kinder spielen seit dreißig Minuten Fußball
Ich lese das Buch seit fünf Tage

Stress. What are you putting stress on. What are you emphasizing.

In the first sentence, the speaker is emphasizing that they've been playing for 30 minutes (and not two hours). What they have been playing is less important.

In the second one, the speaker is emphasizing it is a book that they've been reading -- not a magazine -- for five days.

To _really_ emphasize something, give it first:

Fußball spielen die Kinder seit dreissig Minuten (note the SVO has become OVS order )

Next up, past participles and perfect

The past participle of a verb is the form used with a helper ('auxiliary') verb (in most cases, this will be 'haben'). Ich habe es gesagt, dass...: I said, that...

The perfect is the 'simple' version, ie there is no helper verb.

Ich sagte, dass...: I said, that...

note that the two English forms are identical in use, and for the most part, sense. Where German uses the perfect tense, they are indicating that something happened, and is now absolutely complete/finished/done and dusted/over with. An auxiliary and a pp just says that it was the past when it happened, but makes no claim as to whether it is still ongoing or not. German does _not_ have a tense or mode that is directly comparable to the continuous (-ing): I am going -> ich gehe (I go). "Ich bin am gehen" makes me want to puke a little, in my mouth, but is possibly an attempt at the present continuous.

For example, absagen = abgesagt

What confuses me is how I'm supposed to know which group they should go in. Is there a rule I should use, or is it just a case of learning every single verb and its past participle?

There is generally a rule, one with many exceptions.

The majority of verbs follow the ([sep-prefix])[verb-with-en] -> ([sep-prefix])ge[verb-no-en]t

sagen -> gesagt
absagen -> abgesagt
spielen -> gespielt

but:

gehen -> gegangen
denken -> gedacht


You'll need to learn the exceptions.

NOTE: The above is from memory, and I may be corrected by others. If so, I'll edit this post to correct...

[Bramish]

That's definitely a big help, thanks.

I think working through this book, and then working through it again, and again, will improve my German no end. I could pay for a course, or a tutor but since I've been self-taught thus far I think it will be hard to find a course that covers only the stuff I have real trouble with, if that makes sense. I just need someone to explain, in English, the way something works and relate it to the specific part of the book, and then I'm away.

[CapnNismo]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/German-Grammar- ... 3468349491

You can find this book in any bookstore in Vienna, Bramish. Buy it, read it, worship it. It is THE BEST grammar book that I have come across that teaches you the grammar rather than being a reference guide for writing.

[Bramish]

Cheers. I have it. Started working through it and got completely confused so got the German In 30 Days book to work through first.

[CapnNismo]

You should definitely come to the German conversation groups, Bram.